Church Woes

We moved to this area over 12 years ago, effectively moving too far away from our church at the time to continue to attend there.  Though we did go sporadically for awhile, various life issues made it pretty rare, and eventually we turned to trying to find a local church that we could go to.  Two good, solid attempts were made, each church that we attended we probably stayed at for about a year or more each.  We gave it enough time to really try to make it work, and in both cases, we realized it couldn't.

By then there was a new church plant that had branched off of our original church, and was close enough that we could possibly go.  We visited one week and it felt like a "click" for us--especially for our then 12 year old son who had started to really dislike the close-to-home church we had been going to.  We were looking at him, our oldest child, about to be in the teen years, and figured that hating your church was not a good thing, so we made the leap and dug in to the new church plant, even though it was a 30 minute drive from home.

Here we are 7+ years later, and again things are different.  Our hectic school year and resulting fatigue and overload has contributed to us probably only making it to church 3 or 4 times since last August.  Our kids never seemed to care, and other than some obligatory guilt, neither did my husband or I.  When we would make it to church we mainly felt like nobody cared if we were there or not, and for whatever reason, none of my kids seemed to have meaningful friendships with any of the kids there.  By now my oldest, who was one of the biggest reasons we went to that church in the first place, is now grown up, working, and not really interested in attending church there (or anywhere) any more, so he's no longer a factor in our church decisions.  The few friends that my current 13 year old child did have through church was complicated by the fact that *that* family had left our church recently, so not there isn't even anybody in the youth group age bracket that he is connected to or wants to see.  When the youth group schedule was changed in such a way as to make it even more difficult for our family to have any chance of participation, my 16 year old daughter told me that she didn't even care, and that she had no interest in going to any of the youth group stuff anyhow.

Alrighty then.

My younger kids, despite there being a large focus in this church of having things that are quite "hip" and geared toward their gender and age group, didn't really like it, were loathe to participate in most of what was going on at church, and always expressed relief when each Sunday rolled around and they found out that we were staying home (again).  Strangely, even after all the years of a small group type format in their kids church, not a single one of my kids made a significant friend at church.  Not a one of them.  Weird.

So all of this has given some food for thought.  What the heck are we going to do about church?

If it was just about me, I'd probably just not bother with church for the foreseeable future, quite honestly.  I feel like my ideas and beliefs have evolved to a point that I don't know where I could go to church and feel like it makes sense for me.  My husband tends to not want to admit any church apathy of his own, but his lack of motivation in going to church tells the truer tale, I think.

Regardless, we have children that still need to be reared, and my upbringing (I suppose) makes me feel that church should be a part of that.  Say what you want to about fundamentalist churches.  For me, growing up in churches and with a school that got me memorizing scripture, knowing every basic Bible story, knowing the books of the Bible by heart and being fast at "sword drills," knowing hymns and choruses by heart, knowing the Romans Road and the sinners prayer, understanding my childhood denomination's stance on various theological issues...all of that has been uploaded into my brain and is in there, for better or for worse.  I'm reminded that whether I do or do not go to church as an adult, I already have a whole lot of Bible and God stuff inside of me that influences who I am and what I do and what I believe. I guess I would consider it a benefit that I have so much of all of that as a foundational part of my understanding of Christianity.

What I often think about, though, is that my kids haven't really had that.  Churches have changed a lot, and we haven't been to ones that focuses on Bible memory and Bible stories and spiritual fundamentals all that much.  Certainly they've gotten a decent amount of those things, but nothing even close to what I grew up with.  I don't know what kind of outcome (I don't even know if that's the right way to say it) to expect if my younger kids don't get more.

Periodically I've considered sending them to Wednesday night stuff at our local Baptist church, thinking it might just be a good booster shot of fundie stuff that they aren't otherwise getting.  Alas, they don't want to go, and our schedule couldn't bear one more thing anyhow.

Several weeks ago I found out about a church about 15 minutes away that sounded like it had a balance of casualness, societal awareness, and hopefully not oppressive conservativeness.  We ended up deciding to go check it out.  We already know a family there, so my kids were walking into having friends in their classes, which was a plus, especially for my teenagers.  On the first week all 5 kids seemed very happy.  My younger boys were excited to have learned about Ruth in their Sunday School class.  My teens seemed happy and eager to get a parental commitment on whether or not we would continue to go there.  Through the week they even started referring to our regular church as "our old church."  We attended again today, and the kids liked it again.  But for me, personally, there was so much stuff that left me feeling blah, and then the more I thought about it, the more worked up and negative I felt.

The adult Sunday school class I attended (both weeks) had no depth and dealt with no real issues, real questions, or real problems.  I would expect a deeper class than that for elementary school kids.  Why on earth people even older than me would need a bunch of trite, pat answers to stuff that isn't even reality, I have no idea.  I honestly do not think I could endure going to a class like that for very many weeks.  At least at the church I (don't) go to, people talk about real issues, aren't afraid of not having the "right" answers for everything, and can talk openly about stuff that they think about and struggle with. This was worse than fluff, and I find that really, really meaningless.  Plus annoying.

The sermon was ok, but again, felt lacking in depth.  The pastor was pleasant, seemed very sincere and seemed very nice.  But I felt like everything he said was very safe, and that there were many times throughout his sermon that he could have been more personal or vulnerable, but he never did step into those opportunities, so it came across as pretty clinical to me.  I don't have to have a dazzling speaker, but I do want something that seems real and honest, and something substantial and thought-provoking wouldn't hurt either.  He also talked about the importance of going to Sunday School and Wednesday night services, because they were so enriching, blah blah blah.  Yeah, well, I could get greater spiritual enlightenment out of a good hot soak in the bathtub.  And eventually it was mentioned that the Wednesday night Bible study was about creation, which didn't exactly sound spiritually enriching nor life-enhancing to me.  (and the youth group, lawsie lawsie, is doing a several-week Wednesday night series about sex, and I sure as shootin' ain't going to send my two teens into a group of kids they barely know, with a youth leader than hasn't even made the effort to say hello to me for two weeks in a row, to talk about not having sex, etc.  No thank you.  We will not be participating.)  If this is the best this church has to offer for spiritual enrichment and ways to "connect" with other people, I fear this is going to be some dry bones for me.  Add in the fact that my schedule ended up getting *worse* for the summer, instead of less crazy--I am even less inclined to have one more place to go, one more day for lunch to be chaos and kids to be moaning about how HUNGRY they are on the way home.  I absolutely hate this whole combination of stuff and wonder whose bright idea was it to make church end after normal lunch time?  I wish there was a Saturday night church someplace around here....

There were other things, less glaring, but still felt a little -blah- to me.  While I was treated very kindly by senior citizens, I didn't have a single woman near my own age say hello to me or take any interest in me whatsoever.  (My friend that I know there did take us under her wing and was great--no problem with her or her family at all.)  There are wretched donuts on hand, which I would prefer to not have my kids eating or tempted by.  And--petty though it may be--the screen for the music is so high that it hurt my neck to look up at it, and the background behind the words on the screen moved around so much it made me dizzy and I had to not look at it very much.  Made me feel like a total geezer!  The fact that I don't know hardly any of the songs that they sing isn't helpful either.  There was already a little girl flirting with my boys while they were trying to participate in singing (the songs that we do not know).  She was batting her eyes and tapping them on the shoulders and generally being distracting.  She was kinda young, and I found myself wondering where the heck her parents were and why she was free to just come busting into our row to mess with my kids.  Ugh.  I do not feel like putting up with this stuff.

But there are my kids, thinking that maybe they just got themselves a new church to go to.

What do I do?  What do I do!?  They had recently been feeling a need for church (especially my 13 year old), and this is one they can walk into and feel comfortable with right away thanks to the friends they already have there.  They like it and are asking to go back.  Do I accept this as a parental duty and just take them?  Do we try to redouble our efforts at our church of the last 7 years, and see what can be done to make ourselves feel at home there?  (except, of course, that none of my kids are feeling connected there after 7 years, so.....what are the chances of that happening now?)  I don't know which aspects to give priority to.  At our 7 year church we have relationships with some of those people that go back 20 years.  As I've mentioned in past posts, I take relationship longevity seriously.  I wouldn't want to walk away from that lightly.  Except of course for the fact that really, we already have, just by pulling so far back that now there are a bunch of new people there who would think that *we* are visitors if we showed up.

I know that we don't want to go on an all-out church hunt.  The only reasons we even visited this church was because it is a fairly new church that wasn't even in existence last time we looked for a church closer to home, and it sounded more balanced than most, and like it might be similar to what we have been used to.  We hate church hunting and don't like jerking our kids around, either.  It does seem like, spiritually-speaking, that all (or most) of our 5 younger kids are in need of a change and could stand to have something new injected into their church experience.  I feel like if we haven't seen strong (or even mediocre) results after 7 years where we've been, it's probably time to admit that and mosey along.  But I feel like the options for me personally are rather bleak.  I realize that it *could* get better with time, and that two weeks isn't enough time to know everything.  I did like the mix of ages at this church. I liked it that it is much more racially diverse than other church options we have available.  I like it that we have one good friendship with a family there for starters.  I like it that the kids would actually be making friendships with kids that live in our general area, which was not the case in our 7-year church.  It's not all bad.  Just feels like I might have to check my brain at the door and add one more dutiful item to the long list of motherly duties I already perform in my life.  It would be nice to not feel like that about church.

Depression and the Church

Found this interesting discussion going on at Carlos Whittaker's blog about the Christian Church and depression. What do you think?

Zoe Children's Homes

Here's a little article about one of my most favorite organizations--Zoe Children's Homes. You can learn a little more about how the founders got started in their quest to rescue children from human trafficking.

"I'm Claiming This Verse as God's Promise to Me"

I recently had a friend here whose husband is currently unemployed. They have seven children and are really struggling and praying for him to get a job.

In the course of the conversation she mentioned something from the Bible and told me that she was claiming this verse about God wanting men to work and to find satisfaction in their work as a promise to her about her husband's situation.

And I've been thinking about that. For quite some time now I've wondered if this way of approaching the Bible is maybe.....pretty screwed up.

If we are reading along in the Bible, which is basically an ancient book full of stories, does it make sense that we just start plucking out the parts that we like and then try to twist God's arm behind His back with "claiming this verse as a promise to me."

I'm a parent. If one day I took my child out on some errands and ended up buying him a treat, and later another one of my children finds out about this, can they get away with blackmailing me in order to get the same treat? Have I created a precedent that I am now obligated to? I don't think so.

It's not that I like one kid more than another. It's more like: maybe I had some extra money or extra time the day that I got the first kid a treat. Maybe the second kid isn't going to get a treat because we're in a hurry, or that kid is already going someplace later that night that will have some sort of treat. Whatever the reason might be--I don't think I have to do the same exact thing for each kid. I'm fair. But I don't always give equally.

I suspect it's the same with God.

I know I've heard dozens (or more) stories from people with cancer (or with loved ones with cancer) that were claiming God as their healer up one side and down the other. They can come up with verses ten miles long to support their belief that God is actually obligated to heal them because of supposed promises in the Bible. In almost every one of these cases the person with cancer dies. So it seems like we have a short multiple choice list of possibilities:

A. God doesn't keep His promises
B. God never promised us what we think He did
C. Other

I thought about asking my friend about her belief that she could just go claiming random stuff in the Bible as a specific promise that she could latch onto, but I quickly realized that this would just come across as a harsh challenge to a belief that is giving her some sort of comfort and strength. Even if I don't really agree with her, neither do I want to take that away from her.

So instead I toss this out into cyberspace. I was going to ask what you think. And you can tell me, if you want to. I think I've already come to my own conclusions, though.

Timely Words from Searching For God Knows What

I've been slowly working my way through Donald Miller's book Searching for God Knows What. He has so many good things to say.

In the midst of all the political stuff going on right now, I wanted to highlight a few things he says in the book:

"In my opinion,
if you hate somebody because they are different from you,
you'd best get on your knees and repent
until you can say you love them,
until you have gotten your soul right with Christ.

I can't say this clearly enough:
if we are preaching morality without Christ,
and using war rhetoric to communicate a battle mentality,
we are fighting on Satan's side.
This battle we are in is a battle against the principalities of darkness,
not against people who are different from us.
In war you shoot the enemy, not the hostage."



"The reason I bring this up is to plead with evangelicals
to return to the sort of call Christ has given us,
to obey Him
and experience intimacy with Him
through sharing our faith,
loving our enemies,
serving and feeding the poor and hungry directly,
and to stop showing off about how moral we are
and how that makes us better than other people.
I assure you, once we leave the fight over our country's future
and enter the spiritual battle for the hearts and souls of the lost,
the church will flourish,
and the kingdom of God will grow.
God is not in the business of brokering for power over a nation;
He is in the business of loving the unloved
and pulling sheep out of crags and bushes."

Katy, Katy, Katy....

I can always count on Katy to provide subject matter for me to discuss! Today she asked:

hi there Dollymama...just wanted to check in...say hi...and ask you about your church out of sheer curiosity (and the fact that hubby and I are rethinking our church right now)...did you say that you were a member of an emerging church...I have no idea what that is and am currently "collecting" people's church experiences

OK. Well, if you ever send me your email I would send you a link to my church so you could go take a look and even listen to sermons. Just so you know, I have the comments set to moderated all the time now, so you can send your email without me having to publish it for the rest of the world to see. :)

I don't know if my church would count as emerging or not. I think we share some of the same goals as some emerging church stuff, such as striving to be relevant to a culture that thinks they don't need God or Jesus. However, we have a huge emphasis on uplifting the relationship between parents and kids, so that's different from most emerging church type stuff I think. (or so says my lead pastor, when I asked him if we were "emerging" :) )

Our church was started just a couple years ago and it's structure is based on a lot of cool ideas. Many of these ideas were inspired by or modeled after Andy Stanley's church. We do KidStuf on Sundays, which is loads of fun and helps parents and kids learn together. Never before have I known what my kids were learning about in church, or had any shared experience relating to the subject matter to inspire conversations about these things. Now we do, and that works very well for us.

For us, with a growing family, it was always a struggle for us to be a part of churches that laid on tons of pressure to "be faithful" by attending every. single. event. they had going on. If they planned it, we were expected to be there. While it can be nice at first to have lots of church activities, for us it lead to burnout, and then discouragement at realizing our church structure was kind of sucking the life out of us, asking us to not do the best thing for our kids (like get them to bed at a reasonable hour--we actually heard from the pulpit at one church that when you put your child's bedtime before a church service, you are teaching your children that God is not important to you...), and making it nearly impossible for the church attenders to have real relationships with each other since they were all so busy working at church. When we realized our choice was either to have no friends, or make friends while working the "fast track" at church, we took a hike. Now we have a church that only meets on Sunday mornings. No Sunday night. No prayer meeting. No weekly youth group. No weekly Bible study. Just room. to. breathe! We do have optional small groups available, and you sign on for those for a set period of time (like a year, 18 months, etc.). After that time is up, new groups are available, so hopefully you get to know some other people too. We did a small term group (7 weeks)that met weekly, an 18 month long group that met weekly, and now are only doing youth group (which is for parents and their teens!) which only meets monthly right now which is better for our current schedule.

Is it a perfect church? Nope. There's no such thing. But it's unique and meets a lot of the needs that we have.

Here are some of the particulars from our church, since you said you were interested:

Who We Are

Our church was started, because we saw the plight of American families. Ripped by divorce, financial instability, and relational conflict, we came to see that the way we were doing church actually made it tougher on families. We were telling parents that we could give their kids everything they needed morally and spiritually in just an hour or two each week, but we never had enough resources, volunteers, or time to make it happen. We also asked families to come to church many different times throughout the week…and scatter to different parts of the building. Parents had to “pry” what their kids were being taught out of them, often unsuccessfully.

So we started asking questions. What would a church look like that assumed a supporting role in the moral and spiritual development of kids (instead of the primary role)? What would a church look like that empowered parents to do what they are uniquely positioned to do: shape the hearts and character of their own children? What would a church look like that helped single parents who are strapped for time make the most of their time in their schedule and with their children? What would a church look like that pared down its programming and scheduling to something more “synchronized” and less “schizophrenic?”
We’re not simply different because we dress casually or use guitars and drums in our corporate worship (lots of people do that today). We’re different, because we believe that the way we’ve been doing church isn’t working anymore. We’re committed to making church work.

What We Believe

If you’re familiar with the Apostle’s Creed, you’ll recognize our statement of beliefs.
We believe in: The Bible as uniquely inspired by God, without error, and the final authority in all matters of faith and conduct. One God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ, His Deity, virgin birth, sinless life, vicarious death, burial and bodily resurrection, His ascension to the right hand of the Father and His personal return to consummate history. The sinfulness of mankind and salvation only by grace through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. The present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live a godly life. The resurrection of the dead; believers to everlasting life and unbelievers to everlasting judgment. The church as the body of Christ, of which Jesus Christ is the Head. We believe the church is comprised of all who have trusted by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Here’s how we put that into practice: In essential beliefs, we have unity. In non-essential beliefs, we have liberty. In all our beliefs, we show charity.

Our Values

Intimacy with God – We don’t want people to be religious. We want them to be intimate with God. We believe intimacy (in any relationship) requires three things: (1) unrushed and unstructured time, (2) transparency with our feelings, (3) mutual submission.

Strategic Service – We think too many churches are doing too many things. We ask people at our church to apply their hearts and hands to the place of greatest demand (our Sunday environments). We believe everyone needs to find a place of service.

Authentic Community - We believe accountability, care, and a sense of belonging are critical to balance and progress in our spiritual journey. These three things are best achieved within the context of a small group of like-minded, relationally-connected believers. That’s why we have groups instead of classes.

Relational Evangelism – Evangelism isn’t a program that a few people do. We believe that all believers have the responsibility of living out their faith within their sphere of influence.

Biblical Authority – We believe the Bible is our authority for how to live life and how to be free. Even though no one likes to have someone else tell them what to do, we believe that freedom can only come by living one’s life under the authority of the Bible (and what it teaches).

Passionate Walk – We believe the one thing God wants, more than anything else, from a person is that person’s heart. We want to see people following Jesus by giving God everything…and holding nothing back.

Quiver Full, anyone?

So Chris and her husband over at the Big Yellow House are calling it quits at 7 kids. This reminded me of a recent few blog entries I have read here and there about whether or not the "Quiver Full" point of view is right or wrong. For those of you uninitiated, QF mindset is basically that children are a blessing, that God has childbearing directly under His control, and that using no birth control at all is best because it leaves you open to having the children God wants you to have.

In the past we adopted this point of view...partially. We did not think that it was a concept to be taken to an extreme (such as when someone has an obvious health issue or something that would make more children a great health risk. We knew too many people with too many legitimate reasons to take breaks or stop having kids to think that they were in any way doing something wrong.) but that it is certainly worth remembering what God thinks about children, and to examine our attitude about having them. So often in our society the attitude is that I want X number of children and that is what I shall have. This is what fits into someone's dream family or their car or how many kids they think is right or something. For people that want to glorify God in all they do, shouldn't there also be the consideration and investment of time and prayer about what does God have for us?

So, anyhoo, one spot in the blogosphere recently asked "So if you aren't QF minded, why is that? What possible reason do you have to not have children? Why do you use birth control? Where do you think the QFers have it wrong?"

Unfortunately, it seems that from the extreme QF standpoint there are only two options:

You trust God and want His will for your life, so you will never use birth control.
or
You use birth control because you do not trust God and do not want His will for your life.

A-hem.

See...here is where we never could appreciate the entire QF package. Because, as you may or may not know, there are more possible answers to the QF question than A or B. May I present option C? (some of the rest of you may want to offer options D, E, or F) Here is what I wrote:

We used to generally go along with the QF mindset, and for many years (and 5 children in 7 years) we used no birth control (other than ecological breastfeeding and some haphazard fertility awareness that I now realize failed at least partially because I believe I sometimes ovulate more than once a month). We were up for having lots of kids and things were going fine, so we just didn't worry about it. (We have 6 children total.) It was fine and we were satisfied with our approach (or lack thereof) and so life went on and the family grew.

Our descent from QF-dom happened from a high-risk, dangerous 4th pregnancy and premature baby, to another baby born a little more than a year later, to another one born 20 months later with an "exciting" life-threatening placental abruption at birth. My body was wiped out. My hormones had not been given any chance to recover from all of the pregnancies and post partums, and I was clinically depressed. Our older children were not getting a good home education because their mother was totally wiped out in every possible way. The babies were in front of Blue's Clues videos every day while their mom struggled to homeschool. Little ones' needs were falling through the cracks because I was barely hanging on. Also, our life was constantly overwhelmed by the "baby avalanche" and it was burdensome for the older children, plus they always had to sacrifice their interests in life in favor of us having to stay home because I could not take 3 babies out anywhere.

We felt that to continue to just "be open" to pregnancies as we had been was putting my health at great risk, and not valuing the children we already had. My husband was not willing to have our ship go down all to continue to procreate until menopause, and ignore everything else that he knew we were supposed to be doing.

What we found in the long run was that the QF thing is out of balance. My husband felt that we had to balance our appreciation of our children as gifts from God (Psalm 127:3) , our need to bring up our children in the nurture and admonition of God (Ephesians 6:4), and my husband's charge to take good care of me (aka loving me like Christ loves the church- Ephesians 5:25). (all things that the Bible is even more clear on than whether or not it is ok to prevent pregnancy at times) Some people can do all of these things and have way more children than we have. Some people can do all of these things but for fewer children than we have. The number isn't the issue. The balance is.

We were not willing to say definitely no more children, but we did agree to use a non-abortifacient, very effective form of family planning in order to assure that we gave ourselves 5 years from the birth of the youngest child to regroup, recover, and reorganize. If at that point or beyond we feel that God is asking us to have more children, I am sure we will. (frankly, if we felt called to that now, we'd get on board as well) We've also considered adoption and foster care, but don't feel we're in a position to pursue either of those right now, but there's no telling what the future might bring.

The baby is 2.5 now and we are doing much better. I am slowly working my way back to health, my children get a mother that can actually take them places and play games with them. I am no longer depressed! My husband and I have time for dates and to be in-love and enjoy each other in ways that we were unable to when we were underneath a pile of sweet-but-needy babies.

Babies are wonderful and children are a blessing, but I do not think it is a blessing to myself, my husband, or the children and babies to continue to have more and more of them if it is clear that I am not able to do even the basics, let alone a really good job.

We have been fruitful and have multiplied, we continue to wrestle with this issue and try to be sure we have open hearts to the Lord and what He wants for us, and we are trying to be faithful parents and a solid couple. I think where QF fails is in what the Bible calls "counting the cost." (Luke 14:28) So many people blindly go along having babies and using no birth control, but do not have the balance of financial stability, health stability, skills, or whatever. The road to raising children is quite long, and it is easier than one might expect to get burnt out along the way by overdoing it early on in the race. Yes, God does help us, but He also expects us to count the cost before we start building big families, and to prepare in smart ways.

I'm glad I have the kids I have. They are awesome, and having 6 children is my one great luxury in life that moth and dust cannot destroy. Now that I have survived it, I am even glad that some came in rapid succession--it is really neat to have them be so close and to have instant buddies to play with all the time.

Children are SUCH a blessing--it truly humbles me to think about it for more than a passing moment. My husband and I want to do the best we can with the gifts we have been given, and this is how we see it from here.

**Since I just commented in two discussions on this subject and linked to this post, I thought I would give an update on my feelings on this subject now that it is March 2008. My "baby" is about to turn five in a few days. Though my husband and I do still loooove babies (I got to hold a newborn at church on Sunday--so sweet!), we feel like we made a good call on putting things on hold. As our children have gotten older, we have seen how many more needs they have. When they are all little it is easy to think that their needs will always be so simple. Not true! They need more, their issues are more complex, and older children (mine, at least) don't seem to do well with being ignored, sidelined, or used as free labor to help cope with the needs of younger siblings. My oldest child is 15 now and we are seeing how short the time is.

Counting the cost is an important issue that gets largely ignored in this issue. You can't always take on some huge project without some plans, some supplies, a strategy, some know-how, and expect to be successful. God is apparently ok with this and encourages us to do what we can to prepare. I hope to do some new books and a podcast to help encourage moms in this area. I feel that if I had better training and strategies earlier, that we might not have found ourselves in the tight spot that we were in.